Subject:      RE: Claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani

From:         "Ali Abbas" <qureshi.az@worldnet.att.net>

Date:         1997/11/07

Message-ID:   <63v6cn$j8@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>

Newsgroups:   soc.religion.islam

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Assalam o alaikum to the reader

I visited your site, Tariq and will comment on one aspect of the quotations

that were shared with us.  Before that, certainly the site is dedicated

towards 

dispelling the incorrect beliefs that are held for  the followers of Ghulam

Ahmed. In view of this statement, how well do those quoations hold, when 

their understanding and knowledge of others beleifs are not even correct to

begin with.

And I will share just one piece with you

``The genuineness of the fatwa, Ex. D.E. 13, by

  the Deobandis which says that Asna Ashari 

  Shias are kafirs and murtadds, was questioned 

  in the course of enquiry, but Maulana Muhammad

  Shafi made an inquiry on the subject from Deoband, 

  and received from the records of that institution the 

  copy of a fatwa signed by all the teachers of the Darul

  Uloom, including Maulana Muhammad Shafi himself

  which is to the effect that those who do not believe 

  in the sahabiyyat of Hazrat Siddiq Akbar and who are 

  qazif of Hazrat Aisha Siddiqa and have been guilty of tehrif

  of Quran are kafirs. This opinion is also supported by Mr 

  Ibrahim Ali Chishti who has studied and knows his subject.

  He thinks the Shias are kafirs because they believe that 

  Hazrat Ali shared the prophethood with our Holy Prophet. 

  He refused to answer the question whether a person

  who being a Sunni changes his view and agrees with the 

  Shia view would be guilty of irtidad so as to deserve the death

  penalty. According to the Shias all Sunnis are kafirs, and 

  Ahl-i-Quran, namely, persons who consider hadith to be 

  unreliable and therefore not binding, are unanimously kafirs, 

  and so are all independent thinkers. The net result of

  all this is that neither Shias nor Sunnis nor Deobandis nor Ahl-i-Hadith

  nor Barelvis are Muslims and any change from one ......

Hence this extensive inquiry found that if the fatwas of the ulama are

relied 

upon to determine whether a sect is Muslim or kafir, then no sect at all

will 

be left which could be called Muslim.

My response:

Since was beleif in the 'sahabiyat' of Abu Bakr (ra) considered a matter of

faith? If you read into the proceedings of Saqifa there were many of those

who rejected

his claim to the caliphate, and yes the work of al Tabari will suffice. And

since

when do the Shia ascribe to the beleif that Imam Ali (AS) shared the

prophethood with

the Prophet (PBUH&HF)? 

And you also share 'According to Shias all Sunnis are kafirs'? Since when

did this dawn on the compiler of this work? Have you or the compiler of the

work read the

fatwas of al Azhar, the risalahs of grand Ayatollahs, al Khui, Seestani

Khumayni (ra)

etc? By Allah, this is a blatant lie!!

I even saw this reference to the proclamation of decreeing the Sunnis as

Kafir by the Ithna Ashari on the Ahmadiyya Web site. This is certainly

FALSE. 

The position taken by the psuedo scholar and his understanding of the Shia

school of thought, makes a laughing stock of the material that has been

used as a

source of reference. To present this material as potent proof, and then

also offer

what the site contains, doesn't speak well and high of the credibility of

the

sources and the references. 

To portray this stance that when all the other sects have declared one

another as kafirs, the Ahmadiyya wishes to bring to light the very tolerant

attitude

that they offer. Certainly guised in a scholarship that very well ignores

and sets

aside the prevalent attitude among the two schools is not well taken. My

question, to

you, would be, what is your understanding of the Shia faith? Do you endorse

what

you have shared on the web? If no, then why do you feel it necessary to

share with us what you deem in-appropriate. If yes, then, it speaks of the

lack

of scholarship! It speaks of others matters as well and sheds light on the

ignorance that the complier of the work has for Shia beliefs!

If you say that it is done so to create awareness among the readers how

the two schools consider of one another, then be patient and let me take

the burden of proof.

If you do not beleive in the truthfulness of the material then why is it

being shared with us? If you wish to say that: This is what your scholars

hold of

in opinion, then I will say: Have you read or picked any shia work to 

acquaint yourself with their beleifs. Then what difference is there in

those who have no knowledge and those who share it with us?

The Shia and the Sunnis have gone a step ahead, if you are aware , that

there was a conference held in Iran on Shia and Sunni Unity. Certainly, me

speaking

from a Shia point of view amounts to 'begging the question', and for the

sake of

portraying the readers with how they hold one another, refer to the "FATWA"

of Sheikh

Shaltut from al Azhar:

---

IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE MERCIFUL 

Text of the Verdict (Fatwa) Issued by His Excellency 

Shaikh al-Akbar Mahmood Shaltoot, 

Head of the al-Azhar University, 

on Permissibility of Following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah"

School of Thought 

His Excellency was asked: 

Some believe that, for a Muslim to have religiously correct worship and

dealing, it is necessary to follow one of the four known schools of

thought, whereas, "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" school of thought is not one of

them nor "al-Shia al-Zaidiyah." Do your Excellency agree with this opinion,

and prohibit following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" school of

thought, for example? 

His Excellency replied: 

1) Islam does not require a Muslim to follow a particular madh'hab (school

of thought). Rather, we say: every Muslim has the right to follow one of

the schools of thought which has been correctly narrated and its verdicts

have been compiled in its books. And, everyone who is following such

madhahib [schools of thought] can transfer to another school, and there

shall be no crime on him for doing so. 

2) The Ja'fari school of thought, which is also known as "al-Shia al-

Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" (i.e., The Twelver Imami Shi'ites) is a

school of thought that is religiously correct to follow in worship as are

other Sunni schools of thought. 

Muslims must know this, and ought to refrain from unjust prejudice to any

particular school of thought, since the religion of Allah and His Divine

Law (Shari'a) was never restricted to a particular school of thought. Their

jurists (Mujtahidoon) are accepted by Almighty Allah, and it is permissible

to the "non-Mujtahid" to follow them and to accord with their teaching

whether in worship (Ibaadat) or transactions (Mu'aamilaat). 

Signed, 

Mahmood Shaltoot. 

The above Fatwa was announced on July 6, 1959 from the Head of al-Azhar

University, and was subsequently published in many publications in the

middle east which include, but are not limited to: 

1. Al-Sha'ab newspaper (Egypt), issue of July 7, 1959. 

2. Al-Kifah newspaper (Lebanon), issue of July 8, 1959. 

---

If you wish to acquire a photocopy of the above mentioned decree, I can

mail you a copy. Also, if you so wish, pick up the resalah of any muhtahid,

al Khui, the late Imam Khumayni, Seestani or Ali Khamenei, the disparity 

of the views that are shared on the web site on the Shia portrayal of the 

Ahlus Sunnah are dispelled.

Also the dialogue between two Shia and Sunni scholars that was compiled

together as a source of reference enumerating their stand on their beliefs,

reflects the "tolerant" attitude that they hold for one another. You can

pick 

up this work from Halalco Books, titled 'The Right Path' by Sharaf ad Din

al 

Musawi. A work un-paralled and par excellence in their scholarly approach 

to the exchange of letters. 

I have always made a point to read of the resources of your school to gain

and understanding, and I can only invite and heed the same for you. The

choice

is yours.

Bidding you and the reader a day filled with Allahs rememberance

Abbas